Just checking my Dante; trying to see which level of hell has been reserved for scam colleges.

I taught for several years at such an institution in Rhode Island which has grown enormously over teh last 25 years and has its greedy, deceptive tentacles just about everywhere. A predatory school with a telemarketing staff reminiscent of the crew from "Boiler Room".

Students were given the Ability to Benefit test and voila, all passed, which ensured the financial aid packages that are the ultimate goal of this school. I had kids who were developmentally disabled in English classes, preparing for degrees in auto mechanics and electronics, but they could never fathom the texts, much less the protocal of the technologies. Kids promised lucrative careers as surgical assistants and occupational therapists - this school trained enough medical assistants to staff every hospital in Beijing. Of course, a very small percentage found work or even internships. And they were hustled through with an associate's degree 'in 18 months!' (a big selling point), but paid a 24 month tuition at predatory school rates.

I felt like pond scum all the while I taught there. No rationalizations that I was helping the 'underclass', or first gen college student could apply. I was just another brick in the wall of their lifelong exploitation. The vast majority had literally no chance of being employed in the fields they were 'training' for.

I finally left (dang the lost reference - I wouldn't have put this hell hole on my resume anyway) when one of the inhouse bill collectors pounded on my classroom door one day demanding to see a student who was late on his monthly bill. I told this school employee that Student X was not in class that day. He was in attendance, but damn if you are going to interrupt one of the few classes in which a teacher actually teaches for a late fee lecture.

Annie, I can tell you which rung these folks should be condemned to - it's one where you spend all eternity chasing the unobtainable, and paying through the nose for it.

If something sounds too good to be true, it usually is. The recruiters for for-profit "colleges" promise people who are ignorant of higher education an easy degree(without working hard or college prep) to graduate and make a high salary. One does not get something for nothing. These parasites dupe vulnerable people who are poor and uninformed. These students could go to college at a fraction of the cost if they went to their local community college.

I am amazed at the thousands of people who enroll in these for-profits when there are so many public community colleges, four-year colleges, universities, and non-profit private universities that offer higher quality programs at usually lower prices. Can someone enlighten me as to why a student would choose to enroll at a for-profit when there are so many better options?

To pbalibraryref: there is an ignorance factor, but there is, I think, also a lazy factor. At the local community college, you might have to drive and pay to park or take public transportation to the college, walk across campus and ask a few questions for directions, and maybe stand in line to wait for an admissions clerk to get you the information you need to get started.

THEN,... you have to take a real test (not a scam test) that tells you where you place in terms of Reading, English and Math and if you didn't do well in these in high school, you may actually have to take a few remedial courses so that when you get into those college level courses, you can actually do the work. This means you are not going to get that "sonography degree" in 18 months, or maybe even 24 months, but you may be on the 3-year Associate Degree track; not because the college is non-student friendly, but because you are lacking in the basic educational skills that will ensure you can actually GET a job once you graduate because you were able to LEARN and can function in the professional world...

Lastly, you may also have to walk across campus and go to the bookstore to get your own book.

People who want to sit at home in their smelly sweat pants and never lift a finger in effort for their education are also ripe for being scammed, and it seems there is no shortage of online/for-profits willing to step up to the plate.

My family (up through my parents) were traditional farmers...I grew up with "if it sounds too good to be true,..it probably is" and "nothing worth having comes without some effort on your part" as family "themes", and throughout my 40+ years on this planet, I have found both to be truth.

College is, and should be, hard work; it is not for everyone, and these for-profits who are flooding the markets with imaginary degrees are not going to do anything but line their pockets and cheapen the value of a traditional academic credential.

@pbalibraryref - Not all for-profits operate that way. It is wrong to lump all for-profit schools into the bad-apple group that give us all a bad name. Our highly regarded university is among the least expensive. We charge less than the state universities. The quality of our courses and programs are second to none, meaning they are truly rigorous in teaching to high standards and provide students with solid, valuable learning outcomes. Nearly all of our students come from word-of-mouth referrals from other students or their employers. There are many other highly regarded for-profit universities that serve their students well. Lunping us all together harms a lot of students too.

I agree that the scum-sucker schools who will enroll anyone, even if they don't belong in college, only to get the financial-aid money should go to jail. The boiler-room antics don't belong in education.

I taught at one of the largest for-profits for many years before and after it went public. Before going public it was an incredible learning arena. After going public, it allowed anyone to attend and the quality suffered greatly as the school soguht to meet Wall Street growth and profit expectations. Most of the schools discussed recently here are publicly traded schools. They are the ones committing the horrors you are commenting on--not the for-profits that are serving their students first and foremost and honoring their school's mission.

I actually interviewed for Redstone and declined their offer because I did not like their recruiting practices. Their compensation system was wholly based upon the generation of numbers and not quality students. For example they offered all-inclusive company paid trips to tropical locations for the top 25% of their sales force (highest producers). Their pay plan was based upon the number of graduated students paid in the amount of 2,200.00 per (a commission). This is a clear violation of accreditation procedures and could result in loss of their certification. To avoid this they paid the reps a salary plus bonus. The bonus was figured by multiplying the number of graduates by the 2,200.00, subtracting the salary and expenses and then taking the remainder and paying the rest in a lump sum as a bonus (example: 50 graduates X 2,200.00 = 110,000.00. Subtract the reps salary usually 45K starting, and expenses typically 23K - 25K, this would result in an amount of: 40,000.00 to be paid as a bonus) as you can see this is simply a draw against commission and yet the government considers it to be different enough to not be a violation. Never mind the fact that a sales rep will react to this system in exactly the same manner as a direct commission pay plan (they will recruit every student they can and the unscrupulous ones will mislead or outright lie to accomplish this end).
I still work in the for-profit school system and have in fact found a position as Director of Admissions for a very small computer school. We pay a salary only, no commission, no trips, just a company Christmas party and a summer barbecue. The results the staff I have are the most direct and honest individuals I have ever had the pleasure of working with. The reason that many individuals use for-profit schools is simply that we can do a better job than the community colleges.

pbalibraryref: your post makes you sound like a poor person who scoffs at someone wanting a Lexus over an Escort because of the expense. The person behind the wheel of the Lexus will tell you that it is worth every penny. Some people are willing to pay more for higher quality and better value. The problem is that there a lot of hucksters out there who work for the mega-corporation schools that are dirtying up the industry.

All true, but in the end it isn't going to matter. The trump card here will be the well-funded lobbying campaigns of for profits as Congress pontificates, then reneges, on effective regulation to eliminate predatory practices. $100,000 in debt for a degree in fashion design merchandising with no job? Tough luck! Multiply that times all the students in similar positions, take a modest 5% off the top to fund political PAC's and lobbyists, pass some cosmetic legislation, and there is enough left over for everyone. Everyone except the students, of course, and the taxpayers who are left holding the bag on "guaranteed" student loans.

@lizziec

Public community colleges aren't advertising nonstop during daytime television. When you enter the admissions department at a public community college you may or may not find someone willing to help you.

For profit colleges have the tendency to make everything about entering and enrolling very easy. You call it laziness.. I think it is lazy of you to just jump to that conclusion.

As another example, a friend of mine just enrolled at Capella for a M.S. degree. I could hardly tell her not to when they made it so easy. In one week she was accepted, got enrolled and got her financial aid all worked out. It took me months to do that at a state University.

I'm not a big fan of for profit colleges but I wish non profits would step up and improve the way they serve students.

My husband had an applicant to his private not-for-profit college quit, because she wanted to go to a place in a strip mall and get a medical assistant degree in 3 months for only $900! It is predatory, but there also needs to be research and preparation by the student.

To the person who asked why students do not take advantage of much less expensive community college programs over predatory ones: there are many reasons, but in my experience the waiting lists at local community colleges can be daunting. At the predatory for-profit where I worked , you did not have to wait two years to get a placement for an electronics engineering assosciates - you were in the minute you inked the contract. At the one community college in RI, you had waits of years to get into the programs that actually led to employment.

Of course the main reason kids go for the non-profits over much cheaper educations is not laziness, and sitting home taking classes in their jammies was not an issue - surgical tech and automotive are not distance learning programs.It is that the program was either not available at all at the one community college in the state, or you had to wait an interminable time to get in.

The vultures who push the non-profits used this fact to great advantage, saying you could be done and making 60 thou a year before you get to take one class in your major at a community college. They were half right - you COULD be 'done', but the only 60 thou applicable was what you owed the for profit.

I worked for such an institution and the majority of admissions representatives were on the up and up. It's the one or two that use deceitful practices when they become desperate for an application that make a bad name for the entire company. Yes, people have been lied to, but not that many. Personally, I think at least half the blame needs to lie with those who willingly sign enrollment documents that plainly state how much they will pay to attend school. Why does no one READ WHAT THEY SIGN? They signed legal, binding enrollment agreements, so I say good luck with the lawsuit...they are gonna need it.

To whomever and who ever would care regarding profit universities and their practices. Non-profit universities methods of lying and prowling on students often will occur prior to the college. Currently in Atlanta, one university AIU has a practice of going to minorities high schools for their recruitment. It is important to follow the path of non-profit universities. It is my belief that profit schools such as AIU, are on the prowl in a attempt to recruit students from schools that are already have troubling passing state standards, schools with a high student to teach ratio, poor quality of teaching and learning and those students who are most likely to have learning disabilities and those students who are first generation college bound.
Within schools such as AIU, Kaplan, Bauder and other non-profit schools, after receiving the student Financial Aid, they go to extreme but dangers methods to keep these students. All schools will carefully monitor their retention however these profit schools will always have a aggressive practice to retain students at all cost, even if that means to pass the student as all cost. And the cultural and structural dynamics are in place such as constantly calling students (as if the universities were a collection agent) Kaplan has informed their teachers that no matter how late an assignment is, the maximum penalty is %5 and professors must make phone calls weekly and send emails to contact students who are failing and or below the %65 mark. In additional assignments from Unit#1 can be submitted in Unit#9 without any significant consequences. AIU has a practice of weekly call-logs, catering to students regardless of their behaviors and or academic performance. These schools are not call profit for nothing, the bottom line is profit schools will push and or go over the line to maintain money. I explore one school NorthCentral University and after telling them not to call me, this school called me 10-15 times per day for close to 2 months. Some schools such as AIU are requiring their professor to enroll students, which this is a function that should be done by the academic advisory and not professors. Although I do not advocate government interfering, I believe the government should shut these schools down or speak with the front line staff in private to gain the real truth. If anyone is willing to do an investigation, DO NOT speak with any profit school Board, Head Companies, President or even VP. Always speak the staff and especially the professors in private off campus.
The structural and cultural of these schools are hindering students and especially minority students. Having students who are unable to read or write, did not take any exam to get into college, students with documented behavioral and learning disabilities are able to get in a profit school without any requirements or guidelines. Additionally, because of these issues and many others it is almost impossible to place these students in careers, especially careers such as the criminal justice field, medical field or business which requires background and credit checks and a good stable personality.

Students were given the Ability to Benefit test and voila, all passed, which ensured the financial aid packages that are the ultimate goal of this school. I had kids who were developmentally disabled in English classes, preparing for degrees in auto mechanics and electronics, but they could never fathom the texts, much less the protocal of the technologies. Kids promised lucrative careers as surgical assistants and occupational therapists - this school trained enough medical assistants to staff every hospital in Beijing. Of course, a very small percentage found work or even internships. And they were hustled through with an associate's degree 'in 18 months!' (a big selling point), but paid a 24 month tuition at predatory school rates.
that right.

@pbalibraryref:

And CCs, and the other college sectors you mentioned are NOT already overflowed? Some have stopped taking in new applicants. Therefore, there is no way for these folks to get in.

@lizziec:
So a 'real' college issues a 'real test', such as perhaps COMPASS, or AccuPlacer.... guess what: so do the FPs - SAME test. The 18 months assumes, and this is made VERY clear in the advertising and during admissions, that NO remediation is needed, that students pass every course along the way, and that students do not take time off, and also take a FULL load every semester. It is unfait of you and others to 'assume' what goes on when it is clear that you also exhibit the 'ignorance factor'.

@olunladotcom:
um, the ATB test is given to those who wish to start college but do not possess a HS Diploma. The ATB programs usually are built in such a way that if the student graduates from the college, they have completed the courss required for a state issued GED. Typically, at a FP, the COMPASS or AccuPlacer scores for ATB students are higher than for your HS grad.

I am not defending the bottom-feeding, scum-sucking pig-dogs that use illegal tactics to enroll students, but the FPs I know of operate pretty much above board (there is always the rogue idiot in admissions), but what can one expect.

Now, anecdotally, one of der_offspring needed to take a College Math class over the summer. Said child applied to a local CC: 7, yes count 'em, 7! - trips back and forth, and gues WHO had to take a day off of work to go straighten out some civil servant (union scum) and get things done? Yup. Said offspring also inquired at a local REGINALLY-ACCREDITED FP to take the course. We warned the child to expect a barrage of phone calls to enroll FT, but ONE call from GUESS WHO stopped that in midair as well. The FP had the child accepted (oh, th esmall private VERY upscale-and-high-falutin' SLAC when child attends evaluated the course and accepted UP FRONT the crtesits from the FP, but only at the B or better grade. Child was signed up and in a class. Cost us about @185 a credit more, but the relative ase of getting this done, AND the acceptance of the credits made it worth it.

Bashing FPs without ever having had experience with them - ALL of them - is simply silly. Do some research folks - the kind you would agree COULD be of publishable quality, i.e remove your prejudice and bias.

There are reasons that people attend FPs. Here in CA the community colleges each have 15,000 to 20,000 students and perhaps 2 or 3 councilors. Many students are first generation college students. They don't have the knowledge of the CC education system. They don't know who to ask for help and they don't know what to ask for. They don't have friends or family members who they can turn to for assistance. While the CCs offer great programs at good prices it is useless for someone who cannot navigate the system. On the other hand most FPs offer a very low student to councilor ratio. They make things easy for an overwhelmed new student. If the program is a good one then it works very well. If the program is predatory then there is a problem. What most people don't realize is that there are hundreds of FPs. We mostly know of the big names and the publically traded companies but these are the minority of schools. My husband, a first generation HS graduate who was not from this country, attended a FP college to learn plumbing. The cost was excellent. They helped him get aid and he took out a small student loan which he pays back at $50 a month. He had the program completed in 9 months, they placed him in a job before he finished the program and now he has his own company. He recently hired a graduate from this program. The career services people from the college keep in contact with potential employers and try very hard to place their employees. This is not black and white and people who have never actually had experience with FPs really need to research things a bit more before passing judgement.

Yes, I, too, once taught as an adjunct at one of these for profit schools in Tennessee. I lasted 2 years, leaving in disgust and frustration over the flagrant deception in place there. An opens admissions 2 year college, it admitted anyone who would be eligible for financial aid. It used both admissions recruiters (salespeople) and heavy television advertising to entice students to sign up. The school conducted diagnostic tests upon admission; of course everyone passed.

Teachers were routinely pressured not to flunk students. Flunking students or even disciplining them would only get you into trouble with administration--management--whose object was to keep students in until their benefits were exhausted. Once I came under scrutiny for flunking one of my developmental English students. Fresh out of high school, this student was illiterate. I think she was actually retarded. Concerned, I spoke to admissions about her and was assured that she had scored highly on her admissions tests. So I tried counseling the student, gave her some tutoring options in the community...and I failed her because she could not do any of the work. I ran into her the following semester and learned that she had been enrolled in a medical terminology course!

Exasperated, I finally turned subversive. I began giving class projects that required students to investigate their chosen vocations by talking to employers and getting information on trends, requirements, salaries. Even when discovering that medical assistants were lucky to start at $10 an hour, that pharmacy techs were usually trained in house, that on-the-job experience would not make them eligible for nursing or medical schools, these students would not re-evaluate their paths. Why? Because they had no money and at this so-called college, they were getting a diploma without having to put money down up front. They wouldn't think about the fact that as soon as they stopped attending school, the note would fall due.

In addition to illiterate students, I also had many foreign students who couldn't speak English. There were many lazy and belligerent students that I was always discouraged from disciplining. As soon as many students learned that writing assignments were often completed in class, students would drop knowing they couldn't download internet papers to submit for credit.

Employers regularly communicated with the school, sending incomprehensible resumes wondering how these students got diplomas. This became so constant that the school ultimately forced us to sign confidentiality agreements explaining that we had to protect student privacy. Right.

Students were forced to buy books from the school--a portion of their financial aid was designated for this so they could not shop for cheaper prices or buy used. I once suggested that some of their aid should be used to help the student get a computer. After all, even medical assistants will need to use a database. How can a school graduate students that can't read, write or use a computer?

What really broke my heart was the one class where I actually helped my students with reading and study skills strategies. It was a small class and many of the students were motivated. Even they seemed surprised--and appreciative--of what they learned and told me they had applied some of the techniques in other classes and even at work. It broke my heart because that success was all too rare, both for them and for me. I knew I wasn't going back when I began counseling students to consider other schools. And then I took my own advice.

I am a graduate of 3 private grounded schools, one public and two private schools. I harbored all the usual fears of an online education mostly based upon what I "heard" about the schools than what I actually knew. However, because of circumstances, I chose to attend Capella University, an online university, where I obtained my PhD. Could I have gone to a prestigious school? Probably, but I am impatient and wanted to start right away. I had quit my job and was prepared to devote myself for the next 7 years to obtaining a PhD so that I could teach at the college level. When I say devote, I mean DEVOTE. I worked every day, seven days a week, on my coursework anywhere from 8 to 22 hours a day. The result? I finished my degree courses and dissertation in 29 months. I learned so much more during that time than I did at my grounded MBA school because of all the research I had to conduct for each course--and for my dissertation.

I teach now at various online colleges and universities and am familiar with their faults as well as their benefits. However, I also teach at a local grounded school. Some of my online students at one of the 5 schools at which I teach online, are very similar to those at the grounded school, where the philosophy is the same: they are special students, pass them through so they will graduate. So many of my students at the grounded school (let's call it ??? College) have a very hard time reading; many do not ever buy their books; they do not read their books even if they buy them; they rarely do their homework; and they wander in and out of the classroom at their whim--something I am not allowed to stop. I had one student who even sat sucking her thumb the whole term, not once participating in the course on her own. Taking stock of what I knew about my students, at least 80% of them had been to jail or prison recently and many were on a special program that allowed them to attend school. Yet, they all expected to get great business management jobs with their associates degrees.

Why do I stay there? Because I am a teacher, I love to teach, and any student that is stuck in my class will learn the topics I teach--and most are surprised when they learn. Second, I stay because it provides me the grounded classroom experience I need to go to a better school. I've just completed my last term at ??? College and happy to say I have a full-time grounded teaching job now. However, I plan on keeping all of my online jobs, too.

As I reread what I just posted, I realized I had not mentioned anything about the good online schools at which I teach. One of them, in Albany, and another in Cypress, CA, have great students that are fully qualified to attend college. Well, as qualified as I can tell through 'talks' with them, grading their homework assignments and reviewing their tests. They have drive, ambition, and intelligence--just no time to drive to a grounded school. Many of them are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan and take time off from fighting to do their assigned homework. Of course, there are always students that get filtered out for nonparticipation, but that usually occurs early in the term. The rest of the term I have fully functional, participating students that are there to learn from me, from their coursework, and they attend for the right reasons--not to get a handout from the government or to take on school debt just for ?X!?s and grins, but to advance their careers or prepare for the real world when they retire from the military. As far as I can tell, I'm the only one of us sitting in front of my computer in a nightgown--they are all working hard at their jobs. The least I cna do is be there when they need me--which is just about anytime night or day because of their world-wide locations.

der_gadfly, we all make typos, but you apparently got so wound up while writing the "anecdotally" portion of your post that I actually could not make sense out of some of it. If you think it's important for the discussion, perhaps you could edit and repost it?

And simmer down! Watch out for your own prejudice. The good experience "der_offspring" had with a for-profit doesn't prove your point either. You were there to help and intervene and provide financial support; many parents can't. And even a crooked school has to have a *few* success stories.

Wow. There are lots of diverging opinions expressed by members who share feelings from far right to far left. Some seemed pleased, some upset, and some angry most likely owing to the report above and their personal experience with the college system. But the information provided in the report does not take a view point to discredit online or brick-n-mortar schools, profit vs. non-profit accredited schools and colleges, intelligence vs. the lack of it, productive citizens vs. lumpen proleteriats rather to highlight implications of currupt financial practices vs. student debt and their life after school.

Perhaps the report raises some interesting implications for further research to re-examine if today's definition of accreditation has taken on a new twist at the expense of technological innovations and/or globalization i.e., "classroom without borders..laugh"! I have attended both for-profit and not-for-profit institutions from the City University of New York to Private "Ivy League" universities such as Embry-Riddle University (Daytona Beach campus). I have also attended Online Universities (American InterContinental University and Capella University). Lately I went back to the brick-n-mortar classroom.

Today, most accredited schools and (prestigious) institutions offer certificates, diplomas, and degrees through their own or a third party online division to keep up with enrollment to remain viable in todays "education marketplace". There is not a single better environment, strategy or methodology of educating students rather a better (optimal mix) or combination of the afore mentioned could maximize a facility..making it more conducive to learning for a cohort or targeted group of students with similar desired outcomes and learning styles. This concept for lack of a better expression (called forth dimention learning amoung other names)has allowed non-traditional "distance learning/online learning" to expand and gain accreditation rapidly.

A student's decision to attend a program offered in a particular format at a particular institution is dependent on numerous factors all too often with the intention being ease and accessibility. Reasons include family or daily living obligations, fanancial needs, school accreditation and prestige or reputation, availability and scheduling, special needs, access to resources (library or electronic resources, scholarships, financial aid, support, technology,), and likeliness of completing a degree on time under budget etc., to name a few reasons.

All of these factors played a part and continue to play a part in my selection criteria before attending a school. There are weaknesses and strengths in all program formats. But the true value of a degree is realized when the student finds the right (optimal)mix of resources to make his or her experience rewarding during and after his brief stay at the school. The true value for the institution is realized when it finds the right balance or equilibrium point between student services demanded and market prices (or true cost of the education package in a given year/or a few economic cycles and which includes the ROI for the students) adjusted for inflation.

So this college may be guilty of coercing students into getting loans they can't handle and of failing to be clear about miserable job propects after graduation...

How is this that different from the rest of the university systems - public and private - in the United States? (And, yes, this is intended somwhat as hyperbole.)

Hello everyone,

This is all crazy but true things that are going on at Westwood College campuses. I am to the point that I don't care anymore of what they think of me. I was a Sr. Rep. there for 6 years at the Westwood College in Chicago. I also went on another job interview knowing that I would get it after three interviews with that company, comes to find out and I know that Westwood had given me a BAD recommendation because they are such AHOLES and all they know is to screw everyone!! When I find out what was said from Westwood to the employer seeking information, I will OWN WESTWOOD and they will be mine for costing me a job! See it just shows that all they care about is themselves, making money and making peoples lives miserable!

I have seen people whith no Admissions experience come in, get hired and start off making more than I, only because they were male and I am a female. I had to work my butt off for 6 years just to get where I wanted to be only because I played by ethical rules rather than playing by unethical rules like Westwood wants their reps. to do. I have seen all there reps that are at Master Rep. levels, Executive Rep. levels and so on cheat the system and lie to prospective students only for their own personal gain which is to get to ELITE so they can get those free trips and get higher ranking in the Rep levels with more pay. I mean it's crazy, I have seen new Reps with no experience at all move up to these higher levels of Rep levels and pay in less than 6 months only because they were taught to screw people and lie. They wanted us Reps to lie no matter what it took to get them in the door, interviewed, and then signed. Our job was to make sure these students sat for 14 days in class in order to get points which are added to the reviews every six months for pay increases or pay decreases depending on the points you gained.

I had a boss there who recently fired me because I was more of a threat to him than anything else ( I questioned everything he did since he was nothing but an unethical you know what from the begining). I was fired....get this, from Westwood for using Paid Time Earned because of some issues I was having. This is just some of how Westwood and the Director of Adm. treated the WOMEN there. The men oh no they could never do wrong but the women constantly got spoken down too and harassed everyday 24/7. If you didn't perform to his standards or you are a threat...watch out he quickly finds things to write up on you and get you fired.

All I can say is...Westwood is in trouble and they are going to be in more trouble. There are a lot of students and Ex-Reps who are not going to let the abuse go and the Discrimination abuse go as well. They are liars, cheaters, Discriminatory against women reps and they need to get rid of certain higher ups at that company including the Director at the Chicago campus...PS he smells a lot too!

Having worked at the University of Phoenix, Grand Canyon University, South University, Everglades University and Ultimate Medical Academy....I can tell you they are all the same! 2catmama nailed it! Until the public schools step up and make themselves more "student friendly" and make it as easy to enroll and get assistance after the fact, the for-profit schools will continue to excel in their defrauding, deceptive ways.